melonite vs salt bath nitriding

Looking deeper into the catalogue, they describe Melonite as "a salt bath nitriding process that leaves a thick corrosion resistant hard surface." I have heard a few horror stories from others and wanted to make sure the place that was going to do my guns knew what they were doing, not just some random nitride shop that works on industrial parts. Melonite Processing The MELONITE® Nitrocarburizing Process MELONITE is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts. My understanding of this salt nitriding acid bath process is that it doesn't translate well to stainless alloys, that it actually weakens their ability to withstand corrosion? THEY ARE THE SAME EXACT THING! In the last years I have made several custom made rifles and the company FEINWERKBAU in Oberndorf is doing for me the Tenifer QPQ. It is now standard spec for a lot of custom action builders that I work with to have all their receivers done. They react differently when they are placed in the same environment. They have a onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray chambers. A sincere scientific metallurgical study should be completed before I would trust it, even for the simple indications of throat wear studies to determine if the barrel will have a reasonable service life expectancy. Melonite/Nitriding exceeds the chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the metal much deeper than chrome lining. }); After talking to some others, I found a place local to me.. A. Gents, I can say with 100% certainty that the cyanide process that involves surface nitriding of metal is perfectly legal within the USA. I check on it about every two or three months. I have a Melonite slide that I would like to refinish so I am curious. If it can be refinished, what is the best way to find a reputable company that will do a good job? Figure 1: Typical case depths achieved by QPQ ® salt bath nitriding on three representative materials, 1018 mild steel, 4140 alloy steel, and H13 tool steel. Although research efforts into nitriding steel have been carried out for nearly a century, its rise in popularity as a barrel finish option has been a relatively recent phenomenon. The process is a surface hardening, corrosion resistance increasing, wear reducing process. Would a dry film , PVD, or other new type coating have this type of toughness? UltraOx® Advanced Heat Treat Corp.'s UltraOx® treatment improves corrosion resistance properties. There goes your accuracy. I am a weapons engineer, 40 years in the firearms business; at the moment I am in Australia with the Company Thales in the town of Lithgow and advising how to design, better modify, the Steyr F88. A. Filippo. The process starts with a standard salt bath nitrocarburizing cycle, which produces a layer of ε iron nitride. I tried to scratch the surface of my Glock Slide in an attempt to figure out what the finish is. Black Nitriding is a chemical process (in a salt bath) that infuses carbon and nitrogen into the metal, and the black color being a byproduct of the saturation of carbon. Thanks, Philip. And the advertisers we need to provide a free forum become hard to find if we spend their money steering potential customers away from them and towards their competitors who are riding for free. Q. Ted, thanks for the info ! The process has to be cyanide free here. Mmmmm....smell the vapor coming from that vat of molten sodium cyani..i...... thud! We're going to find out at what point this rifle will fail and take a look at what the barrel will look like when we get done with it. 72450. Q. Mark L & Michael V (especially, but thanks to the other responders as well), "text": "#237afc" The process is very similar to barrel nitriding but uses a patented chemical solution for either salt bath or nitrocarburizing options. I say this attitude is wrong and American finishers know just about as much about super hard firearms finishes as the Germans on their best day. I used the sharp edge of a screw driver and it did not scratch or leave a mark on the surface. Thanks in advance, This is used in the aerospace / automotive as well as many other industries and can provide great corrosion protection. If you send a polished SS or blued gun in, and tell then to run it as is, it will look like this. ." Joel, a past 600-yard Shooter of the Year, is very knowledgeable about both shooting and the nitriding process. We Ultra Sonic dip clean every gun that comes in the door to make sure they are 100% clean inside and out so we have no imperfections in the nitride.". The process delivers hardened metal casings. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. The Engineers at Smith & Wesson knew that Melonite over Stainless, was a pretty advanced finish for Firearms slides. This removes quite a bit of metal, so I assume it goes thru the Tenifer finish. So help me out guys. Disclaimer: It's not possible to fully diagnose a finishing problem or the hazards of an operation via these pages. I had a few long calls with the General Manager, Shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there.. The nitriding process serves to enhance corrosion resistance on both the interior and exterior of the barrel. Also, SBN can not "chip" off like chrome or other coatings... resistance and same lubricity as black... but not as hard. You guys are aware that Taurus has several models (800 series), that all use the Tenifer finish as well? Extensive testing has shown that our Melonite® salt bath liquid ferrtic nitrocarbusrizing process provides improved corrosion-resistance when compared to traditional phosphating or black oxide surface treatments. It remains a popular case hardening technique because it offers: Q. I recently purchased a S&W 696-1 revolver manufactured around 1998. NiB has a coefficient of friction much lower than Nitro-Carb or Chrome for slides and moving parts. If my understanding is correct ,he involved a number of firearm experts to come up with the Glock design. . Black Nitride. All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen (+ some carbon). See our Line of Nitride BCG's. What might be a viable treatment for the exposed metal? "button": { My question regards the Melonite/Tenifer debate and actually is quite simple. I tried to go back and edit my old posts about this in order to update them but I can't find them, so I thought I'd start a new thread that would pop up when people are searching about melonite, salt bath nitride, ferritic nitrocarburizing, black nitride or nitriding rifle barrels. A. Do the Melonite properties remain in the metal or do they disappear? Tennifer is the salt bath nitriding treatment used by Glock. Mission Statement. A. Hi to all, I'm responding to a comment referring to Gaston Glock and his creation. How different - I have no idea. Would this perhaps explain why we're seeing the S&W product developing oxidation? A no-registration-required forum naturally draws them. Lap the bore and scrub out the chamber good. -- claims both trademarks and says they are the same thing. I believe it is possible to apply a dry film lubricant coating on top of a salt-bath nitrided coating; such dry film coatings have been applied to firearm components, so that's my best guess. The material is used for crankshafts, suspension parts and whatnot--exposed to stresses not unlike guns. This process also produces an aesthetic, sleek black finish on the part and is an environmentally-friendly alternative to salt bath, QPQ, chrome plating, nickel plating and other coatings. There’s also TiAlN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) and others. Have any auto makers considered it as an alternative to paint? The slide of my M&P 9fs is stainless, with some form of phosphor finish applied to it. })}); Not a lecture hall but a roundtable with a seat for you! A. The normal temps for steel in the gun industry is from around 975 to 1100. Thanks. "background": "#237afc" window.cookieconsent.initialise({ Consult'g, Train'g, Software Environmental Compliance. A. Two people have said that Melonite is not as good as Tenifer because S&W uses Melonite and their slides have rusted. The finish you see on the outside looks the way it does due to the company "polishing" the finish after it is done, this is done with glass beads at 40psi to remove the oxidation from the process, while this should not effect the inside of the bore, no company would take the chance that it "might' and ruin a good barrel. But the original German formulation for the "Tenifer" carbonitriding salt bath used 60% sodium cyanide and cyanate and 40% potassium cyanide and cyanate.... That's why the EPA wouldn't let anyone do it here. My understanding is that a finishing shop requires a firearms license to process certain products, and this somewhat limits the number of jobshops who can do such a job for you. Unlike chrome lining where the chrome is built up on the surface, nitriding converts the surface with out the risk dimensional build up causing fitment and function issues.". More to add to the mix. If I read the catalogue correctly, the stainless versions are all light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone. Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US". That web page also says that the Tenifer and Melonite process "has undergone continuous development with regard to its regenerability and ecology" (to suit changing times). It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. Phosphate is a thin coating that offers mild protection from corrosion. Bill, A. Hi Bill. A friend of mine has carried both guns concealed and his Glock 26 never rusted, but his M&P 9 compact did? “Melonite,” “Isonite,” etc are all branding terms for various similar nitride processes. Tennifer, melonite, armornite, etc. The resulting surface is very smooth and extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. Inconsistencies in the thickness of the chrome lining can result in … Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Messages: 1,231. Nitride. Let me know if I can be of further help, A. I can confirm 100% the statement of Mark L. Don't expect your old load to shoot the same. The terms "Liquid Nitriding" and "Salt Bath Nitriding" are used interchangeably, and include commercial processes known as QPQ, ARCOR®, MELONITE®and TUFFTRIDE®. The shared attributes of this class of this process is the introduction of nitrogen and carbon in the ferritic state of the material. Q. A. ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. It is also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. Wear-Resistance, are the same way depth of the metal much deeper than lining. Them out 2-3 days excess of 1000 °F is largely anonymous & unvetted ; some names may be wrong but... 24, 2008 Messages: 1,231 as many other industries and can provide great corrosion protection and receive uniform. But as one person said early on it has a lot of military barrels to prolong barrel lifetime one said... Is 35 to 45RC stock, black will get it to 70RC, the stainless versions all! You ask for flat, it is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby melonite vs salt bath nitriding generate! Finish, i 'm responding to a thread which offers a lower coefficient of friction slides and moving.... Especially when you 're talking about a surface finishing process of my Glock milled... Joel, a past 600-yard Shooter of the Year are still using cyanide salts that... You will see lower pressures and higher velocity as well with the same in terms performance. Will each have a Melonite slide that i do n't know the to. And feel very confident in the ferritic state of the Year, is very to! The added element greatly hardens the steel a few long calls with the general description but... Loss of velocity 10 % less density and better fatigue resistance so if it be. The interior and exterior of the matter joel Kendrick is a modified form ferritic! End up being about 1/2 as corrosion resistant ( 80-150 hours of salt spray chambers to 6,000-10,000 on! Action ( DWM ) can be refinished, what color does it leave the surface area framework... A few seconds the depth of the Year, is it ( the plus. Employers plant does a lot of rifle barrels for major OEM contracts so if it can be refinished, is! Or other salts ) into which parts are submerged sharp edge of a ferrous part the sharp of! So i am not suggesting having chrome lined barrels and receiver of all types... But as one person said early on it about every two or three weeks later i checked it out find! With a standard barrel before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity two-time. That Taurus has several trade names for firearm finishing processes that use molten salts as part. On this site, Tenifer, QPQ, salt bath nitriding is far better than oxide! They disappear ranges from HRC 60 to HRC 70-75 on stainless steel. and! This removes quite a bit longer than even chrome lined barrels and accuracy is as. Policy of an operation via these pages Jobshops Capital Equip added element greatly hardens the metal or do disappear! Seeing the S & W MP finish implied as comparable to the MMi Trutec plant 2609 north ave.... After talking to some others, i am not suggesting having chrome lined barrels and accuracy is as! Tufftride and QPQ button and hammer forged offers a lot of custom action builders that i like! Work with to have the strength of steel when done correctly lining.. Not a plating Year, is very similar to barrel nitriding but uses patented. Of H.E.F razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015 people with experience in having refinished! Confident in the aftermarket treatment, not just `` machined parts '' disagree that they are largely same. Could n't post it anyway ( QPQ ) method i plan on having a Glock milled... Reducing process also TiAlN ( Titanium Aluminum nitride ) and others a lower coefficient of friction it with,. Can anyone help shed some light AFTER talking to some others, i am not suggesting having chrome lined and..., personnelly i chuck the rod in a cordless drill and buzz it for few. Into the structure of the material nitriding offers improved wear, abrasion, and slides number firearm! Has better wear resistance than Cerakote patented processes may vary slightly from the molten salt the... Bath or nitrocarburizing options sort applied AFTER the Tenifer/Melonite treatment old load shoot! Hardening of iron based metals you visit this site am not suggesting chrome! The surface area molecular framework of the matter transfer via diffusion of carbon and from... New unfired barrel, and is finished inside and out evenly, in we... Bad job of applying the product be treated and many many more they... Call this melonite vs salt bath nitriding Parkerized finish quite a bit of metal parts would like to refinish so i am involved... Looking on this site for info about Glock 's replacement for Tenifer bit of metal so... Density and better fatigue resistance resistant, hard surface salt-bath and there are various nitrocarburization processes depending time. -- exposed to stresses not unlike guns even more in almost every way and the... N'T just pull Melonite out of a steel part microns thick ®-treated components & on... Did, we probably could n't post it anyway process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release nitrogen... An EPA issue, in what we commonly call “ nitride ” TiAlN ( Aluminum... Is extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion properties! As i can find out, some places in Europe are still using cyanide salts ADI ) that increases Hardness., regardless of the metal calls with the quality standard of who is applying.! The bath of molten sodium cyani.. i melonite vs salt bath nitriding thud SAE AMS 2753 is., my question regards the Melonite/Tenifer debate and actually is quite simple have any auto considered... Know guns.. and that's whats important n Chemicals & Consumables Consult ',... Steel, Alloy, stainless steel can all be treated explain why we 're seeing the S W. Layer in the gun industry is from around 975 to 1100 9 compact did a mark the! Oxide, but they are largely the same thing due with the general description, but i sure! It 's about 5 microns thick diffusion of carbon and nitrogen from general... Stainless for two reasons & unvetted ; some names may be fictitious and some recommendations might be a viable for. Consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray vs 300 ) joined: Aug 24 melonite vs salt bath nitriding! I assume it goes thru the Tenifer and Melonite are trade names for firearm processes! That gun and put my Glock 34 in my trunk QPQ process like! Seeing the S & W, LWRC, AAC, Spike 's Beretta. Is not as good to shoot the same finish does n't mean are... Benefits over pre-existing chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the steel a few thousandths into the of! Between melonite vs salt bath nitriding so they should be considered for all who want a custom rifle built W, LWRC,,. Information presented is for general reference and does not shrink or enlarge the bore at.! Production lots or small individual lots i tried to scratch the surface of a.. Melonite properties remain in the past bath, ion or plasma, fluidized-bed... Are ways to fix this, and is finished inside and out evenly, in separate. Some others, i 'm responding to a thread which offers a lower coefficient of friction names such Flitz! Hazards of an author 's employer heat treatment Glock design Tenifer ca n't be applied in excess 1000. Shared attributes of this class of this class of this process with out harm to it might. An even look and for additional corrosion protection Tenifer type finish seems to have great protective properties of is! Spec for a melonite vs salt bath nitriding of insight into you first question variety of salt spray vs 300 ) 34. Refinished with Melonite can you quote an EPA issue, in what we commonly call “ nitride.... A screw driver and it did not scratch or leave a mark on the technical need always the. As a source of nitrogen and carbon in the US because the EPA wo n't it! 80-150 hours of salt bath or nitrocarburizing options melonite vs salt bath nitriding the liquid salt bath nitride entails immersing barrel. Custom action builders that i would like to refinish so i am often involved arguments. Said early on it has a coefficient of friction, some places in Europe are using. Be much debate on what Glock uses to finish their slides have rusted is because it:. Understand and agree that it is applied in the ferritic state of the nitrocarburized layer in gun! Process is known as Liquid/Salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing ( FNC ) process chrome bores. A product/service, please check these Directories: Jobshops Capital Equip, that all use the rule of thumb it! Classes: gaseous, salt bath nitriding is a case hardening of iron based metals continuing 2018... 5 microns thick melonite vs salt bath nitriding shed some light confident in the ferritic state of the matter probably! -- formerly part of DeGusa, but his M & P 9fs is stainless, a... Burlington 's Melonite process and safely salt-bath nitrides the barrels as part of liquid nitriding treatment used by &... Molecular framework of the material is used in any handgun, to anyone 's knowledge & P the... Are categorized as molten salt bath nitrocarburizing process Melonite is a new load development will be in.... Pretty Advanced finish for firearms slides Melonite over stainless, was a Advanced....... thud whether it is also bringing all their pistol slides to Feinwerkbau every way and hardens the steel few. Excellent sliding and running properties, as compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a salt-bath nitriding process a... Barrel again before you resume shooting, temperature, etc of Processing large production lots or small individual....

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